I came across Gus Speth for a famous saying,
"I used to think the top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that, with 30 years of good science, we could address those problems. But I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy - and to deal with those, we need a spiritual and cultural transformation. And we lawyers and scientists don't know how to do that. "
It goes right to the roots. As a Christian thinker, I believe that Christianity and other religions have much to offer to bring about "spiritual and cultural transformation". This is an interview with Gus Speth in which that quote is discussed (at the end), and a wider context is set, of the need for such transformation. I felt it was so useful that I have taken time to transcribe it here.
This is a transcript of the interview given by Gus Speth on A New Consciousness and the Eight-fold Way towards Sustainability, held on 13 January 2021. It is available on https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/earth-charter/episodes/Gus-Speth--A-New-Consciousness-and-the-Eight-fold-Way-towards-Sustainability-eosn9o/a-a4b66th.
The interview was undertaken, and is hosted, by Miriam Vilela of Earth Charter, as a podcast.
In the first part, the transcript might not be exact, with some words omitted, but I have tried to get the full meaning of what GS said. Later, it is an exact transcript.
Overview: Mr. Speth explains how the bad habits of thought including individualism, materialism, consumerism, and tribalism do not make sense today, and a new consciousness is required. Mr. Speth emphasized that for a sustainable future, we need a stable or smaller world population, the eradication of mass poverty, environmentally benign technologies, environmentally honest prices, sustainable consumption, knowledge and learning, good governance, and the transition of culture and consciousness. Mr. Speth also gives thought to the role of education, religion, social movement, and role models. While recognizing the limitations of lawyers and scientists, he believes that what we need is not more analysis, but a spiritual awakening to a new consciousness, and so we should bring on the preachers, poets, psychologists, writers, artists, and so forth to strike the chords of our shared humanity.
A reflection on the need for a transformation in consciousness in American culture
Comments on the eight transitions that can facilitate a sustainable future described in the book Red Sky at Morning: America and the Global Crises of Environment (2004).
Comments on the ideas of "a new consciousness," "a new worldview," "the seedbeds of change," and "the bridge across the abyss" elaborated in The Bridge at the Edge of the World: Capitalism, the Environment, and Crossing from Crisis to Sustainability (2008)
A reflection on his change of personal perspective since the 1970s
A comment on the quote: "I used to think the top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystems collapse and climate change. I thought that with 30 years of good science we could address those problems. But I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy... and to deal with those we need a spiritual and cultural transformation and we, (Lawyers) and scientists, donīt know how to do that."
A reflection on ethical dilemmas in his personal career
# MV: [Introduces Gus Speth]
# MV: You have been making strong arguments about need to promote a change in consciousness in American Culture. Would you share with us what do you mean by that, and why? Why do you talk so much about transformation of consciousness?
# G: In the US and maybe many other countries, countries that I got very familiar with in the United Nations, we are beset with set of values and habits of thought that really do not reflect todays needs. ***
# They may have been appropriate for some earlier time, but they are not appropriate today.
# We think about rugged Individualism as something to be prized. And people talk about rugged individualism in the US. But it really is a great burden today, for things to be so much premised on an individualist approach rather than a communal approach, a common approach, a whole approach that links us all together. Individualism is a bad value for todays needs. # MV: Probably it has always been a bad value. But predominant. # G: yes.
# And then we we think about ourselves, all the time, as the dominant species on the planet, at the top of the pyramid. And everything else is inferior to us. And this anthropocentrism, makes us neglect our role as part of the natural systems. And our close kindship to wild things. And we need to get beyond this anthropocentrism which always says "We are Number One and we can do all we want to do. And we can appropriate [verb] as much nature as we want to appropriate and in the process destroy an awful lot."
# And another bad habit of thought that we have now is what we could call Contemperocentrism, which is to put everything in a contemporary context and not think about the longer run. And that is also killing us. With the climate issue and the loss of biodiversity, and other problems.
# And I could go on like this. But there are a larger set of issues:
# These are all old values that no longer make sense today.
[All are pistic functioning because they are 'isms'. But each being a different 'ism', targets a different aspects as secondary, . Individualism: social? aesthetic?, Anthropocentrism: ethical? social?, Contempercentrism: formative?, Materialism: physical, economic?, Consumerism: economic?, Tribalism: social. ]
# So we need a new consiousness, new habits of thought.
# And it needs to be a more spiritual approach to the world, and a more integrated, holistic approach, in connecting with other life, and non-life, and beauty. ***
# And there are so many great things that are possible, but we need to slow down and enjoy them. And take advantage of the great things that are possible, and focus on the non-material things of life.
[05.10]
# So, that is the change that I think is necessary, and that is the change that the Earth Charter is advocating as well.
# And for that reason, I have quoted at length from the Earth Charter in 2 of my books, and was really delighted to learn more about what you've been doing, and this 20th anniv of EC that we are now experiencing.
# MV: Yes indeed. It the whole worldview that is articulated in the ??? is an invitation for us to move away from materialism and too much focus on the individualism.
# MV: Now, I would like to ask you to talk about your book, a book that you published in 2004. Red Sky at Morning; America and Global Crisis of Environment.
# MV: Because in that book you explain why current approaches to critical global environmental problems were not working.
# And you then provided 8 linked steps, or you called them "transitions", 8 transitions to help us move towards a sustainable future. Could you comment on what are those the 8 steps that you mention, that you identify in that book.
# G: Sure. I call it "An Eight-fold Way", sometimes.
# These are not in any order of importance; in fact the most important might be the last one.
# Population. Obviously we need to worry and do more than we do about the large numbers of people on the planet. We know a lot about how to support mothers and families to allow them to reduce fertility rates. But the earlier projections we were working with have been far exceeded in terms of global population growth.
[Quantitative, biotic problem]
# Poverty. And then another thing is the need to get very serious about world poverty. I think, with all the efforts going on, that we still are not succeeding and we don't have enough of the right tools being deployed, being made available to really help.
# And then, if we expect on some of these global issues like climate, to have the cooperation of much of the developing world, well they need to feel more secure that we are cooperating with them on their priorities, which are sustainable development and poverty reduction, and sustainable livelihoods.
[Juridical, economic problem]
# Technology. A third area is deep technological change. # MV: Happening so much and so fast, the technological change. # G: It's happening fast. When I wrote this book, some things were beginning. But things like renewable energy have really taken off now. And I suspect we are beginning to see a huge boom in electric automobiles, for example, or electric transportation generally.
[But today 2025 we find backlash against that; we must take that tendency into account. c.f. Keynes' mistake. Pistic and ethical dysfunction. ***]
# G: But across a huge front, of all types of activities, including agriculture (we shouldn't forget that), we have major technological opportunities. You could think of technology or techniques in agriculture.
[Formative aspect solution]
# MV: As long as they are benign technologies in agriculture. # G: There are. And we need to get serious about it, and /
[09.25]
# Environmentally Honest Prices. And then I think another area is in this, what I call, Environmentally Honest Prices.
# We are now deeply subsidising so many bad activities. ***
# In part, direct subsidies. As we are subsidising energy in the United States, ah fossil fuels in the United States.
# But we are also having indirect subsidies, where companies are allowed to dump their waste products and their pollution into the environment. They get a free place to put their waste. Unfortunately, we are on the receiving end of it. And so /
# Prices ought to reflect the full cost of production whether they are now in the market or not. And we know how to do that with economic tools. ***
[AB: Actually, we don't, fully, because of the fundamental problems with valuing things by price alone. e.g. carbon taxes and how it fails overall. ]
# MV: That is the principle of encorporating environmental costs in the real cost of the product - environmental and social costs. # G: Exactly. Social too. We should not forget that; because often we environmentalists do forget that.
[Juridical issue]
[10.30]
[AB: Notice how these are all cultural issues, in terms of our heart, our mindset and attitude, our pistic and ethical functioning. We take a certain orientation on each of these, towards Good or Harm, because of our heart. And also in the following, all eight. ]
# Consumption. I think that another area of ??ate?? is consumption.
# We have a lot of superficial change in the area of ??consumption?? where people look for green products or try not to use plastic bags. And these things are important (I do not deny they are important) but we need also to think about the aggregate amount of consumption.
# And our commitment to forever growing it, every year.
[Yes: Growth]
# And doing "Shop till we drop". And consumerism is the false premise that we think we can meet our deep needs, non-material needs by purchasing material things.
[Yes and no. Yes, these not met by consuming material things: different irreducibly distinct aspects. But no, because often we do not buy X because we 'need' X but because X appeals to us, X will give us rivalry with others, X might be useful in future, etc. Multi-aspectual reasons for buying X (need: economic; appeal: aesthetic; rivalry: pistic-social; useful: formative). Moreover, X might be a non-material service like yoga training. ]
[Lots of non-essentials bought.]
# And people do that all the time, every day. And it's just totally out of control. And it fuels yknow growth that is destroying the environment.
# We need to find a way to have sustainable livelihoods, to meet people's real needs. And provide real opportunities without this endless commitment to growth.
# MV: Because probably we have this mindset that can be fed into our worldview, that we need to consume to be happy. # G: Exactly.
[Not quite. Not "To x to be y"; that is too narrowly functionalistic. We consume for the reasons above. We understand that via different aspects, of which the functionalistic is only one (formative). I fear that many in the environmental movement take a too functionalistic assumption about what 'they' do. I take a multi-aspectual approach, as above. ]
# Measures. G: And then we measure this growth with measurement, GDP, which does not reflect real opportunities for people.
# And we have had a lot of GDP growth in the United States, but people's conditions have actually deteriorated. ***
# So, part of this sustainable consumption idea is having good measures of progress, and getting beyond the traditional GDP measure.
[We discuss good measures in Chapter 5 and in separate page on GDP, and propose a multi-aspectual redefinition of GDP.]
# Knowledge and Learning. I think another dimension is the one you work in directly, and that is knowledge and learning.
# Obviously, the more informed people are and the more they understand the world and other people, and other cultures, and particularly the more they understand science, the better decisions are going to be.
[13.00]
[Oh dear! Yes and No. Yes, in that to make wise decisions we need good understanding of all things. No, in that more and more understanding only leads to good decisions when the human heart of the decision-makers are good. i.e. heart and culture. I wonder if he will make that point.]
# Like the presidency of President Trump in the US, which is so dismissive of science, whether it is pandemic disease or climate change. This dismissing of the science, well you don't expect to get good policies then and move towards sustainability.
[Yes and No. Yes, understand other cultures - but must include the culture of non-liberals whose jobs have been lost etc., the people who voted for Trump: the liberal intelligentsia did not try to understand their culture. Then, No, science is not the perfect truth that we seem to take it to be. Science is biased, and science supporters (and liberal intelligentsia) have been too arrogant and not self-critical enough. That is one reason why some people dismiss the science. We need to understand that, to understand why people dismiss the science. But also, we need to understand the beliefs of people who dismiss the science. ]
# Governance. Another dimension is governance.
# And in the book you mentioned, I was reflecting there, in this book, mostly on international governance.
# The focus was global environmental governance. And how do we achieve it?
# And, part of that is that we have a very inadequate system of reaching international agreements now.
# We have forged these huge treaties, which are not really working very well; witness the climate treaty, biodiversity treaty not working very well. Very few of them - some would say only one of the major ones, the ozone depletion agreement, is working well.
[Reason not working well: pistic and ethical dysfunction impacting all else.]
# So we don't know / We arn't applying the best learning and best understanding to reaching international agreements.
# And I think there are tools we know of, and I made recommendations in the book, for improving the treaty process.
# Part of it is to do something which we have neglected badly to do: we have major international institutions, that work to govern commerce around the world. We have a major international agency that works on intellectual property rights. We have one that protects our aircraft internationally, international flights. We have one that deals with telecommunications. And one that deals with trade. Major international institutions.
# And what we have created for the environment, internationally, is just a pale reflection of the influence that these other types of institutions that deal with the economic issues have.
# MV: The environmental organisations have less stength, less power than these other organisations you have mentioned. However, environment is crucial for the livelihood and wellbeing of people all over the world.
# G: Well, as you were saying, you would think that in the best of all worlds we would have one of the most powerful international agencies would be out there fighting for the global environment. And supporting countries in their environmental work. ***
[Of course! Because we dysfunction ethically, working on ones driven by self-interest rather than responsibility (juridical good functioning). The heart of 'man' is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. Theme: The wickedness and failure of humanity. The only solution is Divine action. ]
# G: And, we don't. We have UNEP. UNEP is a ??fine?? agency, with some very very good people and a good track record in some areas, but it is a little peanut of an agency compared with, say, the World Health Organisation or World Meteorological Organisation. I commend them for what they do. But it is not up to the job. And I suspect they would be the first to admit they are not up to this problem that we have now, with global environmental deterioration.
[16.25]
[AB: So, why the difference? I feel a difference in type of challenge, e.g. in immediacy. But also that our mindset is such that economics and aircraft are deemed important while climate and biodiversity is not. ]
# Spiritual. And then, yknow, we talked a minute ago about the need for a spiritual transformation. A transformation in consciousness where we begin to see the world anew. And differently.
[AB: Seeing the world: pistic functioning]
# That is the last transition of the eight.
# And it is a transition in culture and consciousness. Along the dimensions that I embraced before, when we started out. [The list at the start?: the isms.]
# And I think, yknow one of the critical issues that people have to address is, people say
[The defeatist attitude of some] "Well, cultural change, value shift; these are great, just what we need, but it takes a long time and we don't know how to do it. Because yknow it is very complicated, and we just have to work on other things."
# G: And one of the points that I make a lot is,
[GS's response] "No, that is nor right. We know a lot about how culture changes. We know a lot about how values change. How we can help promote those processes now."
[17.40]
[AB: But this is exactly what Christian / religious perspectives address. *** ]
# So, I don't think we can wait on values to change in order to start moving on a bunch of issues, which we need to / We have got to go with what we've got, to some degree.
# But I also think we are not going to get very far in addressing these great global environmental challenges and social challenges - we won't get very far unless values are changing along with the yknow policy changes, for example. ***
# The two will grab and reinforce each other.
# And / # MV: Absolutely; in your book you say, you affirm that this is the most fundamental transition of all, the transition of culture and consciousness. ***
# MV: How do you think this [culture transformation] can take place?
# G: That is the question, and I did try to look at that. And I asked a bunch of social psychologists and I said, "Well, What would lead to a kindof cultural transformation?"
# And one answer that came back very frequently was "Well, a crisis." ***
[18.45]
# Crisis can drive deep rethinking. Crisis can de-legitimise the current system, for example, or de-legitimise the government. And make people think about an alternative. ***
# And become more aware.
# It is a sad thing, but to some degree I think we are the world's / big changes are going to be crisis driven. ***
# I wish it weren't true. But it is already happening on climate. We see the climate change is causing crises all around the world now. And we see people finally beginning to take it more seriously.
[19.25]
# Leadership.
# So, there was a another critical dimension of driving value change is leadership.
# If we have wise leadership and people yknow talking consistently and demonstrating the new values in their lives /
# It does not do for leaders to go out and preach one thing and then do another. It just discredits them. So they have to be real genuine about it. But leadership is so important. # MV: Good ethical leadership. # G: Honest leadership.
# Related to leadership is that leaders can help tell a new story. New narratives. We need a new story. ***
# The old story, about "Growth is good, always!" "American exceptionalism, in our case; we are so great!" That "The best way to happiness is to consume more!" And "Consumerism fulfils all our needs!"
['Narratives' are pistic functioning: fundamental beliefs about what life is all about and how to achieve good. For §6-3 and trainer. ]
# These are all the old myths. But we need a new story, about a new national purpose, new international purposes.
[20.45]
[See Chapter 4: The Meaning of Economics.]
# I have a friend who is working now to build a movement of global citizenship. And develop the idea that there ought to be an International Declaration of Human Duties. To go with the Declaration of Human Rights. ***
# MV: Well, the reality is that we are all part of, not only the country where we were born, but we are also part of the planet. We were born on this single unique planet Earth that we have come from. We have human rights; we also have human duties and responsibilities to care for the Planet. And therefore it's kindof this image of being part of the country where we come from but also being part of this planet Earth, that entails responsibilities in life.
# G: You put it very well.
[21.50]
[Very good. But on what philosophical or normative grounds do we say that, on what 'authority'? The only authority that is compelling enough is a Divine. Let us see below what he will speak about religion. ***]
# And I think this would be part of a new story. A new challenge. A new direction.
# MV: So you talk about the transition of culture in consciousness. Come when there is a crisis, when there is good leadership, when there is honest ethical leadership in / *** [useful summary]
# MV: Could we say: what do you think about the role of education in helping this transition towards a new culture and consciousness?
[trainer / r6-3: collect the words 'culture' 'consciousness', 'heart', 'spirit', 'movement', etc. What dominates our public discourse. ]
# G: Yes, well I agree with that. That is so important. And it can be informal education as well as formal education.
# And a lot of people need to go back and learn some things they missed the first time, including me.
# But I think education and ah / # MV: A new kind of education. # G: That would be very / # MV: Citizenship education. # G: Exactly.
[22.50]
# G: Another thing of course is religions.
# I think world religions can of course play a huge role in driving of value change. ***Q
# And we are seeing more and more religious leaders stepping up to the plate and addressing these bigger issues of cultural transformation.
# Social movements can be very important.
# Because social movements are, at their core, consciousness-raising events. And they make people think. Whether they accomplish exactly they set out to do, they always make us think, and make us wonder why this this is happening and what is going on. ***
# And we can certainly see this in the US with the revival of the civil rights movement today, occasioned by all the police brutality and things. And movements round the world. And people are in the streets a lot. And that is where they should be. I am a great believer in peaceful demonstrations. And peaceful civil disobedience, if needed.
[24.05]
# And then lastly, another source of value change can be the popping up of models that inspire us. In lots of localities around the world, things are happening. People are developing innovative ways of doing things. And /
# MV: Good examples, good practices, do you mean? # G: Yes, good practices.
# G: Best practices, really, for yknow, lots of the /
# We may be dominated by big agribusiness, but there are a lot of things going on in smaller farms around the world today. Regenerative Agriculture. And other, yknow Organics. And other things that are making a real impact.
# And um we will have to move away from a diet based so much on animals and meat consumption.
# There is a lot of ways to do these things. A lot of models, different types of enterprises, business processes /
# MV: Probably there are a lot of models we need to give more visibility to. those good stories, good practice. Models.
[25.30]
# G: Yes, there are some websites that do that, but still it really is invisible to a lot of people.
# Great things are happening but mostly known by the people who are doing them.
# G: So, if you put this package together, of things (which are idea'd in one of my books, America the Possible), I'm sure these factors could interact to drive value change and culture change and transformation. ***
# And I even wrote a poem about it. Writing poetry books now.
[26.30]
# In my second book of poems I wrote a poem about this.
# MV: Wonderful. It's another way of getting to people's hearts and minds.
# G: I think we have got to do a lot more for hearts.
--- Question: Seedbeds of Change
# MV: Now, in 2008 you published another book, called The Bridge at the Edge of World: Capitalism, Environment, and crossing from Crisis to Sustainability. In that book you called for a new consciousness, a new worldview.
# And you also talked about "seedbeds of change." What are these?
# Would you share or give us a jist of your ideas in that book?
# G: Well, I guess the place to start, since we started with the environment: If you ask people today "What is an environmental issue?" they are likely to say "Climate" or "Biodiversity loss", "Air pollution".
# But what if an environmental issue is anything that is impeding or stopping environmental progress? ***
# And those should be environmental issues too, right?
# And if you look / if you answer that question, well then you get an end to a series of deeper issues about the way our economy works, and our politics work.
# If you have a politics that is dominated by money, dominated by giant corporations (the most powrful actors in our political system are corporations). If our democracy is dominated by corporations and money, we are not going to make a lot of environmental progress. [economic aspect] ***
# If people are being deprived of opportunities to have a decent livelihood, and are scared to death about losing jobs, and being further marginalized, they are not likely to be thinking a lot about global climate change. Unless they have to.
# So this vast social injustice in this society is a clear impediment to environmental action and progress. [social, juridical aspects] ***
[29.00]
# MV: When I hear you talk about that, it came to my mind, an environmental problem is our own mindset. [pistic aspect] ***
# G: Yes. I was going to mention exactly that. If in fact / yknow, your public discourse is dominated by issues of growth, and we are constantly overwhelmed with advertisements /
# We forget how saturated our societies are with advertisements. [lingual aspect] ***
# It was not long ago in the US there were some restrictions on advertising; for example, you couldn't really direct advertising to children. Now it is just huge. I mean, / # MV: Children are the most; children are targets. # G: Big targets.
[These are all actions or issues meaningful in different aspects. And we need action in all of them, but driven by the pistic-ethical aspects. R6-3, Trainer-culture. ]
# G: So, I think these deeper issues, of justice, of power, and our own bad habits ŧ, are real impediments [to environmental progress - and hence are environmental problems, according to the above definition].
# For example, there are environmental groups in the US that rarely talk about consumerism. They rarely talk about changing / attacking corporate power. They rarely talk about issues of justice, even though they might acknowledge that there are serious problems. They just do not address them.
# And it's not part of environmentalism as we know it.
# I think that situation is better in many places around the world than it is in the US and maybe in Europe. # MV: Definitely, in Latin America, I think we see a lot of social and environmental problems very linked a lot more. # G: Linked. # MV: I think people are beginning to think in an integrated way. G: Yes. It is beginning to change here, in the US, I would say. But it is not nearly where it ought to be.
# So these are the / In the book you mentioned, I looked at these issues of deeper change.
# And we have done another book, actually, which we just got out. And it's called The New Systems Reader. And it has 28 essays in it about alternative political economic systems, that would achieve much better results, in general, than the one we have now. ***
# Ah, of course, for a lot of people, it is pretty radical stuff, and they think it is socialism or something else. But it is ah / you have to look at these changes individually. And we need alternative measures of progress, we need more democratic control of investment decisions (it is all now the banks and the big companies). And we need a greater forms of / bigger forms / more companies that are run by workers, and coops of different types. There are a lot of changes that are needed, if we are going to deal in the long run with these great challenges.
[32.30]
[AB: No. Companies run by workers are not 'needed'; it is just that they are useful. the reason is that worker-run-companies imply a move away from idolatry of money and power, but exactly what that move is does not necessarily achieve good. ]
# And the Eight-fold way things that I mentioned, in a way at the outset, those could be viewed as initial steps, the things that need to be addressed and accomplished. But the things I have been talking about most recently can be thought of as system-change issues and they are going to take longer and they are going to be harder, but they are just as necessary. Walk on two legs, so to speak.
[33.10]
# MV: Absolutely, And we certainly need to advance on the transition to sustainability. Accelerate it more faster towards that transition.
# G: The speed is a big issue; because / the slow speed is a big issue.
# When I started working on these issues, I was introduced to the climate issue, when I was in government in 1979. So, over 40 years ago, scientists came to me when I was in government and said "You got to do something about the climate issue."
# 40 years ago!
# And we took it to the President, and we got a lot of newspaper coverage on it back there. There were reports flying around, calling for action. That was in the Carter administration.
# And - you know how much has happened - I should say, not happened - in the ensuing 40 years!
# So now, whereas 40 years ago we had time to do the thing right, if we did. But now we have no time. We are behind, way way behind.
# And so now it is urgent. These things that were once important are now urgent. # CE: Absolutely.
[Pistic, ethical dysfunction of affluent humankind.]
# MV: At the end of that book you published in 2008, you use a metaphor. You share a double metaphor. Like to see if you can remember it. The metaphor of the bridge across the abyss. I would like to see if you can share with us, what does it mean?
# G: Well, I would be happy to try.
# MV: Basically you said some thing about xxx can only be reached after we take the right path, or something like that.
# G: Well, it is simple enough, I think.
# I am afraid that we are headed towards an abyss, if you want to call it that. ***
# Basically, think of the climate issue. I mean, we are headed towards a huge global problem of destabilization of food supplies, of living conditions, loss of biodiversity and natural systems, heatwaves, storms, droughts, it is already beginning, and is it is going to be really devastating if we don't do the right things in an urgent way.
[36.00]
# So, the abyss is issues like climate change, and I could talk about other things too. And the metaphor in the book was that if we, we could find a path around the abyss rather than going in to it. But that involves taking up the kinds of things we have been talking about here today, with urgency and seriousness. Because we are not on that path now, and we are headed towards a devastating situation across many social and environmental issues.
# And I have used the climate issue because it is so pertinent and it is on people's minds, but there are others.
# And there is just this vast injustice in the world, that needs to be addressed with the same kind of urgency. The climate issue is going to impact on already very deprived situations around the world. ***
[37.10]
# CE: So, there is such a deal for inter-generational justice or injustice around the issue of climate change. So the generations to come are the ones who are going to suffer the most.
# G: Well, thank you for mentioning that, because it is a passion of mine.
# I have been involved with a group of young people here in the US who have been suing the government, the federal government, for claiming that they have deprived of their constitutional right by the failure of the federal government to act responsibly. And the Federal Government has not only not done anything positive to address the climate issue, but it has also done a lot to make it worse. So these 21 young people 5 years ago sued the Federal Government to try to get the government's head straightened out and help put the country on a right track. The suit goes on without resolution, I am afraid, at this point.
[38.15]
# But this group, Our Children's Trust, has done a great job of representing young people in legal processes, to fight for their climate rights.
# CE: But I think, part of this new consciousness that we need to raise is the consciousness with regards to our responsibility to future generations. I think it is not there enough. Because not many people are aware of it. We don't even think about our responsibility to future generations.
# What does that mean. Our eyesight is not long enough on the horizon.
# So talking about intergenerational justice seems to be something abstract for me.
# G: Well there are some people who made a small joke, and it went like this:
"Future generations? What have they done for us!!"
# CE: Thank you for sharing that.
[39.20]
# CE: So, you have been involved in this for so many years. More than forty years. Imagine.
# Have you changed anything in your perspective, in all of that, over these years?
# What do you think is the most urgent need for humanity to move in a more concerted effort towards sustainability and climate action?
# Have you changed your perspective?
# G: No. I think my views have changed a great deal.
# When we started out, for example in 1970, with creating an environmental group, The Natural Resources Defense Council - which is now very much a global organisation - we thought that we could get things done by working in Washington mainly, working to implement the existing laws that been recently enacted. Yknow, we thought we could get this job done pretty quickly in a way. [i.e. working on the juridical aspect]
# But we turned out to be really badly wrong!
# And I slowly evolved in my thinking over the period since then, to the idea that much deeper, more profound changes are needed in our system of politics, and our system of economics.
# That we pride ourselves on so much, but it is not doing the job.
# And so it has been a process, I would say, of going for deeper change. In my life. And I think now that the deepest changes are the ones that we need to spend a lot more time and energy on.
[AB: Need change in the pistic and ethical aspects of society and culture. ]
d# It is good that we have a lot of the traditional environmentalism going forward.
[41.25]
# G: We need it badly right now to stop the US from backsliding. Yknow, the current, the Trump administration has attempted to roll back over 100 environmental rules. So it has been a real important process of trying to prevent that from happening.
# And I am sure things like that are going on in other countries too: backsliding.
# So that is important, to keep fighting in the traditional ways.
# But we also need to find ways to drive deeper change.
# So that we have a system which is really / in which good results are natural. In which Good things happen easily and not with always struggle.
# CE: indeed, indeed.
[42.21]
[AB: Genesis 3: God told Adam that things would no longer be easy, because they turned away from God's mandate for them. Creation would be working against them, inasmuch as they worked against the grain of Creation. If only we go God's way, things will work well "naturally", because that is working with the grain of Creation. ]
[Our Rethink offers that. This is like our multi-aspectual economics contributing to Multi-aspectual Overall Good. And the need for Holy Spirit action, to change the hearts of people from inside so that Good is natural. The huios which the Creation is eager to experience. *** ]
# CE: Now, our last question to you is: There is a famous sentence of yours, circulating in the Internet. Probably more than you think. Because it is actually circulating in different languages also. But it is a very interesting sentence. And I think it got popularized.
# You say
"I used to think the top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that, with 30 years of good science, we could address those problems. But I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy - and to deal with those, we need a spiritual and cultural transformation. And we scientists don't know how to do that. "
# That is such a good sentence of yours, that circulates around various Internets. And I would like you to comment on that.
# Actually, when did you say that? Do you remember?
# G: Well, it is an interesting story.
# The first / Except for one word, the paragraph that you read - and it is circulating around - except for one word, it is accurate. I said that. I meant it, and I still mean it.
# But it's got one word wrong. Let me clarify that, clarify that right away.
# I said "We lawyers and scientists don't know how to do that." Because I am a lawyer, not a scientist. I could never say "We scientists". So, anyhow, that /
# Putting that aside, it is a very accurate statement of my view and /
# CE: When was the occasion you said that?
# G: This is interesting part.
# I have written all these books. And I expect everybody in the world to be reading them and quoting from them [tongue in cheek!].
# But no! What everyone is reading and quoting is a statement I made at a small conference. And one of the people there wrote it down and quoted it in a book that he wrote. So it is somebody else's book! It is not even in my own books!
# However, I did write a poem about it. Do you want me to read you the poem?
# CE: Yes, sir! I think that is so interesting, because people are reading and circulating this paragraph of yours because it is so inspiring and so much to the point. Thank you for sharing this story.
[45.05]
# G: So, here is the poem.
# (But you are good that you raised it, and thank you. It is good to be quoted, regardless, right? But it's just too bad they got it a little bit wrong."
# The poem is called "New Consciousness"
"Decades of discourse, led by people like me.
Lawyers, scientists, economists. And we are stuck!
They can't do what must be done. Which is to reach the human heart.
The deep problems are avarice, arrogance, and apathy.
Dominiant values: badly astray.
What we need is not more analysis,
but a spiritual awakening to a new consciousness.
So let's bring on the preachers and the prophets,
the poets and the philosophers,
the psychologist and the psychiatrist.
Let's bring on the writers and the musicians,
actors and artists.Call them to strike the chords of our shared humanity;
Of our close kin to wild things."
[46.10]
# CE: That's really wonderful. Thank you so much.
# G: Might be a good note to end on.
# CE: Absolutely it is. [chuckle]
# CE: Thank you for all the work which you have done, and what you have been doing, to help us in this cultural shift, in the wakening of a new consciousness for humanity.
# I think you have done a great contribution.
# CE: Well, I wish it were bigger. [laughter] We keep trying. That is about what we can do, right, we just gotta keep trying.
[46.50]
[AB: But we offer exactly what he is calling for. Let us contact him. ***** ACTION AB. ]
# CE: May I ask just one more question, about your own ethical dilemma.
# You took so many leadership positions, UNDP, ??CapitalRye??, and others. Probably you remember some difficult decisions in many ethical dilemmas you had to deal with.
# G: Oh, I think the hardest are always personnel/personal issues.
# I think I learned a lot about human resources, human management, during my experiences. Some times I am sure at other people's expense. But um / That was um / I think that /
# Another thing is not as obvious, but it creeps up on you, is that, when you are in a position, you tend to play the role that is created by all the circumstances around you. And we all try to do well and succeed, but it usually is success within the context within which we are operation.
# And so I think that, looking back on my life, if I had more opportunities, or I had taken more opportunities, is to step back and question the system I was working in, I would have been better.
# I am not sure I would have made any difference, but I would feel better about it now.
# So I think that is something we all have to be conscious of.
# We are usually called upon to yknow succeed and do well in certain ways. [But by his tone of voice, he implies that success is not the primary thing. Christian teaching tells us that, too: we are not called to succeed but to obey, to try.]
[48.40]
# And it is also a cautionary note about which types of jobs to take. Ahh, because you don't want to put yourself in a position where you are constantly having to do things you really don't like or don't approve of.
# And I see so many people in government in that position from time to time.
# CE: Mm. I think this is good advice for the new generation of young people who want to be ethical leaders. Taking your advice in terms of having that room of liberty to take a step back and sometimes question, er, where we are.
# G: Well I'd like to think the younger generation is doing more of that than my generation did.
# MV: Well, thank you so much, Gus, for your time and for sharing with us so much of your wisdom??
# G: Been great talking to you, and I've had a fun time. Thank you for letting me sound off.
[50.00]
[Then came an advert, asking for donaations.]
This is offered within the Climate Change and Global Economy website. It is also relevant to Christian Thinking in Economics.
Transcribed manually by Andrew Basden from recording. 26 February 2025. Last updated: